EDIT: Pointed out by a reader at Woodworking Talk, this is the BTS 21, not 211. Not sure how I missed that, originally. Also, this saw is no longer available new, but may show up in the used market occasionally.
So here's a big one. It's a Ryobi table saw, sort of mid-size (by their standards). It's not a benchtop, it's not a cabinet saw... so what do I think of it?
First off: I've had this for over a year. I've done a lot of cutting on it. The biggest cuts I've done have been cross-cutting 4x4, rip-cutting 2x10, and cutting plywood every which way. I've also cut up a fair amount of 1/4" luan. I've done dados in plywood, and both regular and pressure treated dimensional lumber. I've gotten good use out of it, and despite the fact that this review isn't exactly positive, I don't think I made a big mistake. I just didn't know what I needed.
UPDATE: I sold this saw a couple of years ago. It continued to work reliably, but I was moving, and I met a guy who was starting out as a contractor and wanted a cheap job-site saw. He got a saw, I got a hundred bucks, and I didn't have to move it. It was a good deal for all of us.
It's kind of an odd beast. Rather than the standard miter slot, it has a sliding miter table. Some people love these, some people hate them, and I'm in the middle. It's heavy for a portable saw -- something like 85 pounds -- but light for a full-size saw. While the wheels make it pretty easy to move around, it's pretty hard for one person to get it into a car or truck. Ryobi sells (or sold) a dado insert, and it's set up to allow the use of dado stacks, but it can only take one up to 5/8" wide.
Construction:
While not fantastic, the saw is reasonably solidly built. It IS a portable saw. There's no way to get around that. That means there are some tradeoffs: it's not possible to build a collapsible stand that's as solid as a cabinet base and still portable. You just can't do it. But the top has stayed flat (see my comments on the sliding miter table for an exception), the base has been easy to work with, and nothing has broken. Some pieces that would, ideally, have been cast iron are cast aluminum.
Safety:
Safety is important, I think we can all agree with that. So how safe is this thing?
Issue one: it lacks a riving knife. It does have a splitter, guard, and anti-kickback pawls, but a riving knife would have been better. The splitter occasionally leans a bit one way or the other, which can make things interesting when you've gotten a piece of wood past the blade and into the pawls, and then find you can't advance any. A tap with a push-stick straightens it out just fine, and it's never been a serious issue, just irritating.
Issue two: Getting to the shutoff switch can be interesting. Say you're cutting a big piece of plywood -- a full sheet, 4x8 -- lengthwise. Say something goes wrong two feet in, and you need to shut off the saw. You'd better be able to reach the plug, because you're never going to reach the switch! This isn't really a surprise -- there's not much space to move things around! -- but it is unfortunate. I would have preferred to see the switch on the left side, where I could reach it without letting go of anything with my right hand, even if I was cutting something very wide.
Issue 3: You can't get a zero clearance insert for love or money. They don't exist. This saw uses super-thin metal for the inserts, so to custom make one you'd need to make a panel that was something less than 1/16" thick. Sure, it could be done, probably, but it wouldn't be easy. I've considered buying a second dado insert and hot-gluing a sheet of 1/4 plywood onto the bottom, but I haven't done it yet.
Now, that said: this is a cheap saw. The splitter is solid, and the splitter, guard, and pawls are all a single unit. It's quick and easy to remove and install: it takes maybe 20 seconds. So I've never felt like there was any reason to make a cut without those. The guard is easy to see through, and does a good job of keeping things away from the blade. The anti-kickback pawls appear to work, although I've never tested them in an emergency -- they do make it impossible to pull wood back, though, so I assume they'd work as advertised if they were really needed.
Function:
Let's start with the basics: does it cut? Yes. Does it cut straight? Well... that depends on the user. The fence system is pretty poor. The measuring system is bad enough that I don't bother to use it for anything other than rough measurements: "OK, I need 23 3/16 inches. Slide it out to 23 1/2, then grab the framing square." The fence can be made to be square, but you'll need to check it each time you set it. Once it's set, it's solid -- I haven't moved it accidentally yet! -- but if you're incautious you can set it a little bit off of square. Maybe a degree or two.
What about power? I've never had a problem. It slows down cutting PT lumber, but I did cut 5/16" dados in over a hundred feet of the stuff without trouble. It took a slightly slower feed rate, is all. Not a big deal. Cross-cutting 4x4 isn't an issue, except that it's at the very limit of the depth of cut. Any warp in the wood can mean you don't QUITE get through it. I did try a rip in 4x4 just to see what would happen, and that was fine too.
How about that sliding miter table (SMT) I mentioned earlier? Well, first things first: I love the concept. It's a built-in cross-cut sled. How cool is that? More than that, it's a built-in cross-cut sled with an adjustable fence! And angle measurements cast into the tabletop, so no need for a protractor! For 90 degree cuts, just set it to 90 degrees, and... um. Wait. The 90 degree line is almost 1/8" wide. What do I line up with?
Right. So right there is the first big problem with the sled. The cast in angle measurements are just plain bad. Again, they're a reasonable approximation, like the measuring tape built in for the rip fence, but they're not exact. They're within a few degrees, but it's impossible to get them closer. So you do need that protractor or angle gauge after all.
Next problem: the miter fence isn't very stable. I have had it shift when I didn't want it to, and there's only so much you can tighten down the knob. If you're careful, it's not a problem. But if you're not paying attention, you can really mess up a piece.
Here's the big one: the miter table isn't perfectly flush with the rest of the table. Not much -- less than a sixteenth -- but noticeably. Normally that doesn't matter much: if you're cutting through a piece of wood, you wind up having to raise the blade another sixteenth of an inch. You'll probably never notice. It never bothered me. BUT.. if you're cutting dadoes using the SMT, they're likely to be the wrong depth. That can be a big problem if you don't remember to compensate for it. The main thing is to remember to measure your depth from the SMT, not the regular table top.
The last issue with the miter table is just that it isn't a miter slot. Most of the jigs you'll find writeups for assume you have a miter slot. That's fine, and you can modify most of them, but you'll never be able to just buy a pre-built jig and have it work.
Final thoughts:
I bought this table saw because I needed a table saw, and it was cheap. Home Depot accepted a Harbor Freight coupon, and I got the saw for, as I recall, a little under $200. That's not bad. I'm not sure my other options in that price range were any better. As a rough cut tool -- think general construction work -- it's fine. For finer woodworking.... it can be made to work.
I don't want to be too negative here: I knew what I was getting into by buying a cheap saw, and I got it. For rough work, it's fine, and most of the problems can just be worked around for finer work. For what I knew at the time, and what I needed at the time, I made a reasonable choice.
Would I do it again?
No. Given what I now know, it's not sufficient for what I need. With what I now know, I would have put that money into either a used cabinet saw or, more likely, a cutting guide for a circular saw and a better router. Put simply, this is a lousy tool for any kind of fine woodworking. I do most of my sizing work with a circular saw now (with a good guide, I can get easily within about 1/32 of my intended final size), and only pull this out for rough work and dadoes.
Showing posts with label power tools. Show all posts
Showing posts with label power tools. Show all posts
Tuesday, January 17, 2012
Thursday, January 12, 2012
CTR 1: Harbor Freight 4-speed Woodworking Bandsaw
Note: Originally posted 11-16-2011 at http://woodworkingtalk.com. This is now considered to be the first of the Cheap Tool Reviews. I question the decision now, but it's still pretty cheap for a band saw, so I'll live with it.
I just bought one of these after reading a lot of reviews. One problem I had in making a decision was that the reviews I was finding were almost all at least a few years old, and there have been some changes to the design of the saw since then. So, in hopes of helping out people who are looking now, I thought I'd post my thoughts.
To start off, I have almost no experience with bandsaws; I've used one before, but mostly for metal cutting, not wood. Bearing that in mind, here we go..
0) What I didn't use.
I knew from the reviews that a link belt was highly recommended. Since I was at HF anyway, I bought theirs. Other than that, everything is stock, although I'll be replacing the blade as soon as possible.
1) Moving and packing.
It's a heavy box, but not completely unmovable. I got it out of my car on my own by sliding it onto a furniture dolly, then rolled it into the garage. Getting parts out of the box was an interesting experience. The base and table were on top, right up against the cardboard, set into a molded styrofoam tray. Removing the tray revealed the rest of the saw, assembled and with a blade in it, and the motor. No evidence anywhere of fasteners or a manual. Why? Well, because those were UNDER the saw. In a little nook that was completely hidden until you'd lifted the saw. Anyway. On the plus side, everything was in the box (with one odd sort-of-exception, which I'll mention later), which rather surprised me.
2) Assembly.
A) The base. This went really smoothly. Contrary to my expectations, the instructions were quite clear, all the parts were there, and all the necessary screw holes were cleanly cut and lined up where they were supposed to. The base looked like it was going to have a lot of gaps, but tightening down the fasteners with a wrench closed them all up. As a side note: except for the belt guard housing, every nut and bolt used in assembly is 13mm. I recommend making sure you've got a 13mm box wrench AND a 13mm driver on a ratchet before you start working. You'll want them both.
B) The saw. There wasn't much to assemble here. It was all pre-built, with a blade installed, and all the fasteners tightened down. That's a bonus, because this is where the manual was least clear. The table and its mount DID need to be installed, which was quick and easy. It was also where the "sort-of-exception" I mentioned above came in. The instructions claim you're supposed to use two M8x30 bolts to attach the table bracket. By that time in the assembly, I only had one of them left. However, I also had an M8x35 (more or less) bolt that wasn't called for in the instructions anywhere. As it turned out, it was exactly the right length for the right-most of the two holes I was supposed to be bolting the bracket into, so I decided to just use it and not worry.
C) The motor. Installing the motor was a pain, but not terribly difficult. It absolutely required two people; the motor has to be held upside down under an angled bracket, and then bolts have to be run through from underneath and nuts put on them from the top. I can't help feeling like there must have been a better way to design that.
I'm also going to mention the belt-guard box here: that also sucked, and was probably the hardest part of the entire assembly. It requires putting four fairly small pan-head bolts through four similarly small holes, all on the inside of the assembly, and the drive pulleys pretty much meant I couldn't get my hands anywhere within four inches of the rear holes. A long pair of needlenose pliers solved the problem, but it was a nuisance after everything else being so easy. Assembly probably took around an hour and a half, including checking to make sure the wheels and pulleys were lined up and tensioned correctly.
3) Fit, finish, and accessories.
I'm favorably impressed by the saw as a whole. While the sheet metal edges on the base aren't rounded over, they're also not as sharp as some bases I've worked with.
Once all the nuts were tightened, everything seemed quite solid. The blade tension was really low (essentially no tension) out of the box, but the tensioner works well, and the knob on the new version sticks up above the top of the saw, so it's easy to use. While the table bracket looks and feels like plastic, it seems to actually be cast aluminum with a plastic coating -- tap it and it rings like cast aluminum, and it's too heavy to be plastic. One frequent complaint in the old saw was that the side panels that cover the wheels aren't hinged. Well, they are now. That's mentioned in comments on a few older reviews, but I thought I'd make it part of the body of this one. The lower panel on both my saw and the display model has to be really slammed shut to latch; I'll likely replace the catch with a magnet eventually.
Something I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is that the new model has a brush set to sweep off the lower wheel, out of the box. I'd planned to buy and install one, but now I don't have to.
There are two places where there are angle gauges: the table tilt measure, and the miter gauge. Neither is perfect, but both are adjustable. The table's gauge was off by around a degree: once I'd squared the table to the blade, I reset it to zero, then used a Wixey digital angle gauge to check the rest of the readings. They're certainly very close - within two tenths of a degree, as far as I could tell -- and should do for most purposes. For anything really precise, I've got the digital gauge, which is easier to read anyway.
The miter gauge... what can I say about it? It's cheap plastic with numbers molded into it, and it's screwed to a cheap piece of aluminum c-channel that more or less fits the miter slot. The tick marks for the angle indicators are a good eighth of an inch across. We're not talking "high precision" here. If I need to set an accurate angle, I'm going to use a protractor, rather than trusting the miter gauge. It does have an adjustable needle, so I can set it to "90 (or 30, or 45) degrees plus or minus a little", but that's about as good as it gets. It also doesn't really slide through the slot cleanly, because it gets hung up on the mouth for changing the blade. I'm planning to round off the front corners of the gauge, to see if that helps. It does more or less lock in place, but I suspect it will cease to do so pretty quickly. I don't expect to need the gauge all that often, though, so maybe it won't really matter.
A number of people complained about the drive belt being lumpy and uneven. While I didn't use the one I got -- I'd bought a link belt, so why bother with it? -- it seems to be OK. I'd still say go with the link belt: by all accounts they decrease vibration, and the added expense brought the price even with the Ridgid and Porter-Cable 14" saws, rather than above them. (Actually, if your local Lowes/HD won't accept HF coupons, it's still a lot cheaper than either...)
The blade that came with it is, as you'd expect, not very good. I made a couple of test cuts in some scrap 3/4" ply, and it works, but not well. It did cut fairly straight, and with essentially no drift across a six inch cut, though, so it's probably passable as an emergency backup. The manual claims it's 6TPI and 3/8" width. I haven't counted, but I would have guessed 8 or 10 TPI from a quick look. I did notice a couple of damaged teeth before I used it, and I suspect there are more, so it's not going to get used much, if at all.
4) Final thoughts.
I had just about been convinced to buy a Grizzly before I bought this. It occurred to me, though, that I know for a fact I was going to want to cut metal with it, and the Grizzly just doesn't step down to speed that I'm comfortable with for that. Between that and the option to save $200, the HF model seemed like the right choice. If money hadn't been a concern, I probably still would have gone with the Grizzly, and bought a cheap low-speed benchtop or something for cutting metal. As it was, versatility won out over quality.
I do plan to buy the riser kit for the saw: it's currently available from HF parts for $85 + shipping, although it can't be bought in the stores. I'll be building a fence -- there was a fairly nice set of plans in the most recent ShopNotes for a rip and resaw fence that can accommodate for drift -- rather than buying one, and I have pretty much all the parts for that. So with the addition of the riser and a couple of good blades, I'll have a tool that should do everything I need (and most of what I want) for a pretty good price.
Overall, I'm pleased with my decision, and suspect I made a right choice, if not THE right choice.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would I recommend this saw? Yes. But, as with most HF products, be prepared to bring it back if you find out it's a lemon. They're not likely going to all have all the parts, so assume that yours will have some problems. If you want a reliable out-of-the-box machine in this price range, I'd recommend the Porter-Cable. That's the only one I haven't seen reports of people needing to make major modifications to. It's also one of the least versatile, so you take your chances... for me, the HF was the right choice.
If money isn't much of an issue, I'd probably recommend going higher-scale. The miter gauge with this one is really junk, and it doesn't have a fence. Going with, say, the Grizzly I thought about would have resolved both of those problems, out of the box. It is a lot more expensive though, so again, it's about making tradeoffs.
I just bought one of these after reading a lot of reviews. One problem I had in making a decision was that the reviews I was finding were almost all at least a few years old, and there have been some changes to the design of the saw since then. So, in hopes of helping out people who are looking now, I thought I'd post my thoughts.
To start off, I have almost no experience with bandsaws; I've used one before, but mostly for metal cutting, not wood. Bearing that in mind, here we go..
0) What I didn't use.
I knew from the reviews that a link belt was highly recommended. Since I was at HF anyway, I bought theirs. Other than that, everything is stock, although I'll be replacing the blade as soon as possible.
1) Moving and packing.
It's a heavy box, but not completely unmovable. I got it out of my car on my own by sliding it onto a furniture dolly, then rolled it into the garage. Getting parts out of the box was an interesting experience. The base and table were on top, right up against the cardboard, set into a molded styrofoam tray. Removing the tray revealed the rest of the saw, assembled and with a blade in it, and the motor. No evidence anywhere of fasteners or a manual. Why? Well, because those were UNDER the saw. In a little nook that was completely hidden until you'd lifted the saw. Anyway. On the plus side, everything was in the box (with one odd sort-of-exception, which I'll mention later), which rather surprised me.
2) Assembly.
A) The base. This went really smoothly. Contrary to my expectations, the instructions were quite clear, all the parts were there, and all the necessary screw holes were cleanly cut and lined up where they were supposed to. The base looked like it was going to have a lot of gaps, but tightening down the fasteners with a wrench closed them all up. As a side note: except for the belt guard housing, every nut and bolt used in assembly is 13mm. I recommend making sure you've got a 13mm box wrench AND a 13mm driver on a ratchet before you start working. You'll want them both.
B) The saw. There wasn't much to assemble here. It was all pre-built, with a blade installed, and all the fasteners tightened down. That's a bonus, because this is where the manual was least clear. The table and its mount DID need to be installed, which was quick and easy. It was also where the "sort-of-exception" I mentioned above came in. The instructions claim you're supposed to use two M8x30 bolts to attach the table bracket. By that time in the assembly, I only had one of them left. However, I also had an M8x35 (more or less) bolt that wasn't called for in the instructions anywhere. As it turned out, it was exactly the right length for the right-most of the two holes I was supposed to be bolting the bracket into, so I decided to just use it and not worry.
C) The motor. Installing the motor was a pain, but not terribly difficult. It absolutely required two people; the motor has to be held upside down under an angled bracket, and then bolts have to be run through from underneath and nuts put on them from the top. I can't help feeling like there must have been a better way to design that.
I'm also going to mention the belt-guard box here: that also sucked, and was probably the hardest part of the entire assembly. It requires putting four fairly small pan-head bolts through four similarly small holes, all on the inside of the assembly, and the drive pulleys pretty much meant I couldn't get my hands anywhere within four inches of the rear holes. A long pair of needlenose pliers solved the problem, but it was a nuisance after everything else being so easy. Assembly probably took around an hour and a half, including checking to make sure the wheels and pulleys were lined up and tensioned correctly.
3) Fit, finish, and accessories.
I'm favorably impressed by the saw as a whole. While the sheet metal edges on the base aren't rounded over, they're also not as sharp as some bases I've worked with.
Once all the nuts were tightened, everything seemed quite solid. The blade tension was really low (essentially no tension) out of the box, but the tensioner works well, and the knob on the new version sticks up above the top of the saw, so it's easy to use. While the table bracket looks and feels like plastic, it seems to actually be cast aluminum with a plastic coating -- tap it and it rings like cast aluminum, and it's too heavy to be plastic. One frequent complaint in the old saw was that the side panels that cover the wheels aren't hinged. Well, they are now. That's mentioned in comments on a few older reviews, but I thought I'd make it part of the body of this one. The lower panel on both my saw and the display model has to be really slammed shut to latch; I'll likely replace the catch with a magnet eventually.
Something I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is that the new model has a brush set to sweep off the lower wheel, out of the box. I'd planned to buy and install one, but now I don't have to.
There are two places where there are angle gauges: the table tilt measure, and the miter gauge. Neither is perfect, but both are adjustable. The table's gauge was off by around a degree: once I'd squared the table to the blade, I reset it to zero, then used a Wixey digital angle gauge to check the rest of the readings. They're certainly very close - within two tenths of a degree, as far as I could tell -- and should do for most purposes. For anything really precise, I've got the digital gauge, which is easier to read anyway.
The miter gauge... what can I say about it? It's cheap plastic with numbers molded into it, and it's screwed to a cheap piece of aluminum c-channel that more or less fits the miter slot. The tick marks for the angle indicators are a good eighth of an inch across. We're not talking "high precision" here. If I need to set an accurate angle, I'm going to use a protractor, rather than trusting the miter gauge. It does have an adjustable needle, so I can set it to "90 (or 30, or 45) degrees plus or minus a little", but that's about as good as it gets. It also doesn't really slide through the slot cleanly, because it gets hung up on the mouth for changing the blade. I'm planning to round off the front corners of the gauge, to see if that helps. It does more or less lock in place, but I suspect it will cease to do so pretty quickly. I don't expect to need the gauge all that often, though, so maybe it won't really matter.
A number of people complained about the drive belt being lumpy and uneven. While I didn't use the one I got -- I'd bought a link belt, so why bother with it? -- it seems to be OK. I'd still say go with the link belt: by all accounts they decrease vibration, and the added expense brought the price even with the Ridgid and Porter-Cable 14" saws, rather than above them. (Actually, if your local Lowes/HD won't accept HF coupons, it's still a lot cheaper than either...)
The blade that came with it is, as you'd expect, not very good. I made a couple of test cuts in some scrap 3/4" ply, and it works, but not well. It did cut fairly straight, and with essentially no drift across a six inch cut, though, so it's probably passable as an emergency backup. The manual claims it's 6TPI and 3/8" width. I haven't counted, but I would have guessed 8 or 10 TPI from a quick look. I did notice a couple of damaged teeth before I used it, and I suspect there are more, so it's not going to get used much, if at all.
4) Final thoughts.
I had just about been convinced to buy a Grizzly before I bought this. It occurred to me, though, that I know for a fact I was going to want to cut metal with it, and the Grizzly just doesn't step down to speed that I'm comfortable with for that. Between that and the option to save $200, the HF model seemed like the right choice. If money hadn't been a concern, I probably still would have gone with the Grizzly, and bought a cheap low-speed benchtop or something for cutting metal. As it was, versatility won out over quality.
I do plan to buy the riser kit for the saw: it's currently available from HF parts for $85 + shipping, although it can't be bought in the stores. I'll be building a fence -- there was a fairly nice set of plans in the most recent ShopNotes for a rip and resaw fence that can accommodate for drift -- rather than buying one, and I have pretty much all the parts for that. So with the addition of the riser and a couple of good blades, I'll have a tool that should do everything I need (and most of what I want) for a pretty good price.
Overall, I'm pleased with my decision, and suspect I made a right choice, if not THE right choice.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would I recommend this saw? Yes. But, as with most HF products, be prepared to bring it back if you find out it's a lemon. They're not likely going to all have all the parts, so assume that yours will have some problems. If you want a reliable out-of-the-box machine in this price range, I'd recommend the Porter-Cable. That's the only one I haven't seen reports of people needing to make major modifications to. It's also one of the least versatile, so you take your chances... for me, the HF was the right choice.
If money isn't much of an issue, I'd probably recommend going higher-scale. The miter gauge with this one is really junk, and it doesn't have a fence. Going with, say, the Grizzly I thought about would have resolved both of those problems, out of the box. It is a lot more expensive though, so again, it's about making tradeoffs.
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